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Post by bobw on Dec 17, 2013 12:26:22 GMT -5
You folks have some great published paintball tank action, using the tank over multiple scenarios in varied conditions. I am only still building mine and can't help but think ahead to how it will be used. If you could entertain my curiosity, I have some questions. "Real" tanks have a balance of Mobility, Firepower, and Armor. I think these are 3 things that tank designers consider, according to what I read. How important is mobility in paintball? Given that you should only drive so fast, and if the tank is limited to certain roads, it would seem that the main purpose of the tank would not be to get somewhere quickly or unexpectedly, but to get somewhere with people who can't be shot with normal markers and to carry equipment (such as a cannon) which would be difficult to carry by hand. My tank-to-be will hold only 2 people - a driver and a commander/gunner. And the marker/cannon will be sticking out of the front, not in a turret. I bet this would be considered a non-optimized design, having no turret and so forth. If you have seen non-optimized tanks like this in the past, do they serve in different roles than a full-turreted 4-man tank? Would there be different ways it should be deployed to help out the team, given its characteristics? Would it be necessary to have some add-on components for paintballing, such as a game-day lightweight turret for the commander to stand up in and get a full 360 shooting arc? Should there be a fixed marker that the driver can fire at the press of a button so that more firepower can be deployed. Or, is it good that the crew would realize how limited, yet simple, their armaments were, and they could focus more on communications and tactics? Will the vehicles tracks ever be an advantage that should be used against other non-tracked tanks? What are some of the downfalls of my tank design that I will want to watch out for, or advantages that I would want to capitalize on? Any other thoughts? For reference, here is the tank I am building a scale copy of: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TKS |
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Post by hardboy on Dec 17, 2013 13:18:32 GMT -5
I can try and answer some questions. Having the canon fixed canon on the front is not bad. As long as you can try and traverse your tank left or right to help get your target in your sights. I know that's how Adam does it. He is very successful. You must have very good visibility on your tank. AT gunners are usually very close. You have to see them and get them before they knock you out. I use a combination of plastic wire pet netting and movable clear plastic shields. I just wipe them down with fantastic and paper towels. Yes I would mount a co-axle gun on your canon. Having a remote controlled fixed marker in the front would be crazy cool. But beyond my engineering skills. Building a light weight plastic cover over your cupola is a also a great idea. For fields like OXCC at MD. They have a zero police with exposed gunners. Also not a bad idea when at playing at certain fields like Skirmish, were they can be hundreds if not thousands of players concentrated in a small area. Having tracks is king. You could go anywhere and never get stuck. Which is my biggest fear. My next tank will have tracks. Speed is not a big concern in paint ball. All the fields have strict speed limits. I don't see any down falls in your design. I think its going to be very tight for two players. After playing for a long time in cramped spaces, it Just no fun. Just ask , MY FRONT passenger Tox. He is like 6-4 tall !!! But being a very small target with a low profile is king on the tank paintball field, however . Just ask ADAM.
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Post by bobw on Dec 17, 2013 13:47:50 GMT -5
That is very interesting that AT players are always near. I figured friendly foot troops would always be nearby picking those guys off. Not so?
Do the AT players normally get you from the front, side, or rear. If it is mostly from the front, then a fixed remote marker makes more sense if there is no rule against it. Didn't the troops used to mount claymore mines on the sides of M113's in case there was an infantry ambush from the sides?
My visibility will be like the tank I am modelling - visors to the fronts, sides, and rear, with the option to pop up thru the top hatches and look around (if the crew can't be exposed, then a temporary net frame up there to pop up into). I was going to drape loose netting over the open visors hopefully to catch paintballs and let them roll downwards, rather than breaking them and getting lots of splatter inside.
Thanks for your field advice.
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Post by SSBlackangel on Dec 17, 2013 19:14:33 GMT -5
mobility is still important in your paintball tank. not really speed but being able to go through mud ,water ect. yes ive gone though foot deep puddles,a marsh, and ALOT of mud in my Hetzer. the speed limit is generally 5mph. but getting it up to 10 or 15 when you are off the field come sin handy. my hetzer does about 15/20mph. The current panzer 4 is crawling along at about 4 or 5 mph tops. which is legal but makes reinsertion way tooo slow. The goal will be for 15 to 20 mph out of the new tracked chassis. The infantry is supposed to help take out the anti tank players but rarely do. a paintball tank has a severe disadvantage vs a handheld launcher. some field have a rule that front hits dont count ect
t stationary turret can work fine,but you do want a minor bit of adjustment. like 10 to 20 degrees ect side to side. you cant expect to turn the tank that good everytime and have to make minor aiming adjustments
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Post by spawnkill on Dec 17, 2013 20:48:54 GMT -5
Thing about AT troops, they're like 1 in dozens and picking that one guy out with all the incoming fire can be challenging to say the least. I'd like to try my hand at AT to get a better idea of how an AT personnel thinks and moves. If a guy is good enough with his launcher, you would never know where the shot came from. Bunker busting is a role you could play as well be a fixed forward cannon, clearing out structures for an advance on a base for instance.
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Post by hardboy on Dec 17, 2013 22:07:20 GMT -5
That is very interesting that AT players are always near. I figured friendly foot troops would always be nearby picking those guys off. Not so? Do the AT players normally get you from the front, side, or rear. If it is mostly from the front, then a fixed remote marker makes more sense if there is no rule against it. Didn't the troops used to mount claymore mines on the sides of M113's in case there was an infantry ambush from the sides? My visibility will be like the tank I am modelling - visors to the fronts, sides, and rear, with the option to pop up thru the top hatches and look around (if the crew can't be exposed, then a temporary net frame up there to pop up into). I was going to drape loose netting over the open visors hopefully to catch paintballs and let them roll downwards, rather than breaking them and getting lots of splatter inside. Thanks for your field advice. Most AT gun hits for us are right from the front. On Saturday I would say at least 80 percent of the hits were from the front . The rest were from the right flank. That is a great idea about draping loose netting over the open visors.
I was thinking of doing that and placing fish netting on the front our our halftrack. We were going to use real fish nets. I cant find the right size. The net I have has one inch square knots. The paintballs slip right through!!!. I need fish netting with 1/4 inch knots. Tied very loosely. This type of netting would catch the paintball, like you said.
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Post by BobW-guest on Dec 18, 2013 6:17:03 GMT -5
Thing about AT troops, they're like 1 in dozens and picking that one guy out with all the incoming fire can be challenging to say the least. I'd like to try my hand at AT to get a better idea of how an AT personnel thinks and moves. If a guy is good enough with his launcher, you would never know where the shot came from. Bunker busting is a role you could play as well be a fixed forward cannon, clearing out structures for an advance on a base for instance. I have heard it said (actually, seen it written) that good AT folks will just stay put for a long time in one place, and if you move your tank from one area in the back line to another area, you might get a clue who the AT guys are by watching who moves along the enemy back line to follow your tank. Just a thought. |
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Post by bobw on Dec 18, 2013 7:18:12 GMT -5
How many nerfs should a tank carry?
How many cases of paintballs?
How many gallons of gasoline?
Is it better if the muffler and the paintball marker are as silent as possible, or is it better to be loud?
Does it seem worth taking a gamble sometimes and driving through an important area that has heavy AT:
1) just on the gamble that they will all luckily miss you, and you will cause a very big upset OR
2) at least cause the enemy to be shaken and overly protective against a second such attempt.
That, to me, would seem like the 'classic' role of a tank. You might get killed, but if you get through the prepared area, it could be a free lunch for a while. As long as it is worth losing any team points for getting shot out.
Is it worthwhile to make 1 or 2 such attacks in one area to draw all the AT over there, and then on the third attack, drive over to a far away area where you really want to attack, hoping for less AT there?
Thanks.
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Post by hardboy on Dec 18, 2013 11:39:14 GMT -5
Thing about AT troops, they're like 1 in dozens and picking that one guy out with all the incoming fire can be challenging to say the least. I'd like to try my hand at AT to get a better idea of how an AT personnel thinks and moves. If a guy is good enough with his launcher, you would never know where the shot came from. Bunker busting is a role you could play as well be a fixed forward cannon, clearing out structures for an advance on a base for instance. Next game, let me know. We have numerous commercial AT weapons you can borrow. |
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Post by hardboy on Dec 18, 2013 12:14:04 GMT -5
How many nerfs should a tank carry? How many cases of paintballs? How many gallons of gasoline? Is it better if the muffler and the paintball marker are as silent as possible, or is it better to be loud? Does it seem worth taking a gamble sometimes and driving through an important area that has heavy AT: 1) just on the gamble that they will all luckily miss you, and you will cause a very big upset OR 2) at least cause the enemy to be shaken and overly protective against a second such attempt. That, to me, would seem like the 'classic' role of a tank. You might get killed, but if you get through the prepared area, it could be a free lunch for a while. As long as it is worth losing any team points for getting shot out. Is it worthwhile to make 1 or 2 such attacks in one area to draw all the AT over there, and then on the third attack, drive over to a far away area where you really want to attack, hoping for less AT there? Thanks. Carry as much nerfs as you can hold. But remember to store them were they wont be crushed or deformed. A bent rocket will spin harmlessly up in to the stratosphere. We carry about one hundred rockets in a large Tupperware box  . But even like this they start to get weird shapes. I would like to store six to eight store rockets in smaller plastic boxes or containers. Store as much paint as possible. We use these loaders from rap-4. I think they hold like 1000 rounds. We got the on sale for like $5. You can also use one gallon milk cartons.  Fuel ,,,top off. Air we carry 80 cu feet scuba tanks. We have a scuba refill station attachment. So we can refill our HPA bottles right in the field.   
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Post by hardboy on Dec 18, 2013 12:31:53 GMT -5
How many nerfs should a tank carry? How many cases of paintballs? How many gallons of gasoline? Is it better if the muffler and the paintball marker are as silent as possible, or is it better to be loud? Does it seem worth taking a gamble sometimes and driving through an important area that has heavy AT: 1) just on the gamble that they will all luckily miss you, and you will cause a very big upset OR 2) at least cause the enemy to be shaken and overly protective against a second such attempt. That, to me, would seem like the 'classic' role of a tank. You might get killed, but if you get through the prepared area, it could be a free lunch for a while. As long as it is worth losing any team points for getting shot out. Is it worthwhile to make 1 or 2 such attacks in one area to draw all the AT over there, and then on the third attack, drive over to a far away area where you really want to attack, hoping for less AT there? Thanks. I think its better to be as quiet as possible. Adam can attest to this. Loud muffler wont be able to listen to your on board radio comms. A loud tank means ENEMY AT gunners will be alerted and be waiting in ambush. I'm a little aggressive when playing. Sometimes pushing through and trying to get supporting infantry to follow is worth the gamble to me. We recently tried this at OXCC this last Saturday. We had mixed results. At west point we had better results, doing this kind of push were we knew there would be enemy AT gunners waiting. But at West point our gunners could shoot over the sides of our halftrack. We could not do this at OXCC. Its definitely worth taking the chance to attack a area a few times. Then attacking from a different direction. We also had mixed results at OXCC doing this. There were also satchel charges placed in our path. If we came 25 feet to it, it would be blown up, knocking us out. To defeat those you need infantry in front trying to eliminate those pesky satchel guys.
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Post by bobw on Dec 18, 2013 13:06:45 GMT -5
How many nerfs should a tank carry? How many cases of paintballs? How many gallons of gasoline? Is it better if the muffler and the paintball marker are as silent as possible, or is it better to be loud? Does it seem worth taking a gamble sometimes and driving through an important area that has heavy AT: 1) just on the gamble that they will all luckily miss you, and you will cause a very big upset OR 2) at least cause the enemy to be shaken and overly protective against a second such attempt. That, to me, would seem like the 'classic' role of a tank. You might get killed, but if you get through the prepared area, it could be a free lunch for a while. As long as it is worth losing any team points for getting shot out. Is it worthwhile to make 1 or 2 such attacks in one area to draw all the AT over there, and then on the third attack, drive over to a far away area where you really want to attack, hoping for less AT there? Thanks. I think its better to be as quiet as possible. Adam can attest to this. Loud muffler wont be able to listen to your on board radio comms. A loud tank means ENEMY AT gunners will be alerted and be waiting in ambush. I'm a little aggressive when playing. Sometimes pushing through and trying to get supporting infantry to follow is worth the gamble to me. We recently tried this at OXCC this last Saturday. We had mixed results. At west point we had better results, doing this kind of push were we knew there would be enemy AT gunners waiting. But at West point our gunners could shoot over the sides of our halftrack. We could not do this at OXCC. Its definitely worth taking the chance to attack a area a few times. Then attacking from a different direction. We also had mixed results at OXCC doing this. There were also satchel charges placed in our path. If we came 25 feet to it, it would be blown up, knocking us out. To defeat those you need infantry in front trying to eliminate those pesky satchel guys.
If you had a "roof" over the back of your halftrack, would it count as not shooting over the side, but rather shooting out of a firing port? I read about someplace where the tanks have 2 foot by 2 foot devices on them that you have to hit. For such a case as that, it sounds like always being in motion and not stopping to pick off every grunt could be a real advantage to survivng. Those satchels sound downright mean. Hopefully they only have so many of them and you can re-route. I can't wait to start getting field experience. |
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Post by hardboy on Dec 18, 2013 15:07:02 GMT -5
Yes it would be a firing port.
West Point has that rule. They tape square boxes with duct tape on all sides of your tank. When it gets covered with paintball juice. You are knocked out. Our last paint ball game at WestPoint. We were knocked out twice in this fashion. Our front box was just saturated with paintballs. I really don't like rule. But I guess it gives crunchies, who don't have AT weapons have a chance to take out a paintball tank.
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Post by SSBlackangel on Jan 7, 2014 21:33:16 GMT -5
Thing about AT troops, they're like 1 in dozens and picking that one guy out with all the incoming fire can be challenging to say the least. I'd like to try my hand at AT to get a better idea of how an AT personnel thinks and moves. If a guy is good enough with his launcher, you would never know where the shot came from. Bunker busting is a role you could play as well be a fixed forward cannon, clearing out structures for an advance on a base for instance. good post. when i am playing a/t im stealthy and try to get to a spot where in almost certain of a hit. ill wait till they roll into position and pop out and nail then one shot. did this a few times at botb. i missed tj be about a foot one time and couldnt get him cause the spot was too hot and an enemy grunt stormed over the mound and bunkered me and the guy with me lol. he has balls |
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Post by spawnkill on Jan 9, 2014 18:01:05 GMT -5
Thing about AT troops, they're like 1 in dozens and picking that one guy out with all the incoming fire can be challenging to say the least. I'd like to try my hand at AT to get a better idea of how an AT personnel thinks and moves. If a guy is good enough with his launcher, you would never know where the shot came from. Bunker busting is a role you could play as well be a fixed forward cannon, clearing out structures for an advance on a base for instance. good post. when i am playing a/t im stealthy and try to get to a spot where in almost certain of a hit. ill wait till they roll into position and pop out and nail then one shot. did this a few times at botb. i missed tj be about a foot one time and couldnt get him cause the spot was too hot and an enemy grunt stormed over the mound and bunkered me and the guy with me lol. he has balls That's the thing, anything you do in paintball takes balls, big balls. I know we're not getting any younger and rushing a bunker, building or even a town FULL of enemy resistance, might not seem worth it, but if it means swaying the tide of the battle in our favor, then it's well worth the battle wounds. It's something that I'm trying to instill in my crew, who is still fairly new to the sport. If I can get them to put aside their doubt then they will be a force to be reckoned with for sure. Goes for any role you play in this sport weather it be A/T, tanking, ground troops, even sapper, maybe especially sapper. We should think about making a sapper unit.? |
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